Monday, June 05, 2006

The H-Bomb.

(I warn you all that this post is both lengthy and serious; despite the generally satirical nature of this blog, one must make an entirely serious point from time to time.)

I picked up my copy of Crunchy Cons from the local library over the weekend, and I find myself reluctant to start reading it. Instead I spent my leisure hours finally reading a book I got last year: Worlds of Star Trek Deep Space Nine, Volume Three. I suppose I found the idea of reading a fictional story about the rapacious Ferengi to be more pleasant than trudging through Rod Dreher's apparent accusations about the greed of mainstream conservatism.

Rod's recent behavior hasn't helped things.

I'm reminded of Jonah Goldberg's criticism of Rod's book and thesis, an NRO article that Rod will apparently, finally address in the paperback edition of his book.
Crunchy conservatism strikes me now--as it did back when I first heard about it--as a journalistic invention, a confabulation fit for some snarking liberal reporter at the Washington Post "Style" section. It plays upon the Left's stereotype of conservatives and adopts it as its own. To Rod's credit, he doesn't claim that "mainstream conservatives" are racists; but he does claim that they are uptight, blue blazered, two-dimensional men motivated by greed. They are Godless materialists, unthinking dupes of Madison Avenue, with no connection to spirituality or religion unless, that is, you think being an idolatrous votary of the free market counts as being religious.

To his credit, Rod still hasn't adopted the Left's nasty habit of playing the race card, but I think he's now guilty of a charge that is equally disgusting.

The rhetorical H-bomb. Homophobia.

In less than a week, Rod has twice asserted a socially conservative position on the issue of redefining legal marriage to include gay couples -- namely, opposition to such a redefinition. He has twice defended himself against the charge of bigotry, and he has, both times, immediately implied that the charge of bigotry is accurate when it comes to the Republican mainstream.

This past Thursday:
As for the Republicans, I support privileging traditional marriage for reasons that have nothing to do with animosity towards gay people, but for philosophical and sociological reasons. I deeply resent the charge from same-sex marriage activists that the only reason one can oppose gay marriage is bigotry. It's a cheap and emotional way of arguing. That said, I think it's a pretty fair accusation that the GOP plays on the fear and loathing of gay people in its campaign-season appeals to voters based on gay marriage. It makes it hard to reward them with my vote. [emphasis mine]

And today:
As I've blogged before, I resent it when gay-marriage proponents (like this windbag) resort to the cheap slur that the only reason anybody objects to gay marriage is "bigotry." This is pathetically weak, because as Maggie Gallagher and others have tirelessly argued, there are solid legal, sociological and philosophical reasons to reject same-sex marriage. These reasons may not be persuasive to many, and possibly even most, people -- but they are reasons, not expressions of blind prejudice. But President Bush and the Republicans cut people like Gallagher off at the knees by the way they treat this issue. If it really is a civilizational issue as the GOP claims (and which I believe), then they wouldn't just trot it out cynically at election time, but would instead fight for it, and articulate a political and moral case for the amendment. It's hard to see how this kind of activism isn't, on the part of the GOP operatives, merely appealing to anti-gay prejudice, stoking an emotional issue transparently for political gain. [emphasis mine]

I have responded to both blog entries (here and here), and I emailed him this morning before the second questionable post was made. Each time, I asked for a clarification: "Are you suggesting that a large number of Republican voters are homophobes?" As of the writing of this blog entry, I have received no reply in public or via email.

Thus, I can only take Rod at his word as it is written. Since he made the same point twice, I believe I can be confident in supposing that he means what he writes.

He opposes redefining marriage for "solid legal, sociological and philosophical reasons." He resents the charge that people can take his position only out of bigotry, and he rejects the charge as a slur, as "a cheap and emotional way of arguing."

And yet, though the GOP is taking the same position Rod is taking, it is "a pretty fair accusation" to say that the party is now appealing to "anti-gay prejudice", to "the fear and loathing of gay people."

One word best describes anti-gay prejudice, and the fear and loathing of gay people. That word is homophobia.

For opposing the redefinition of marriage, Rod believes he is principled. At the same time, Rod apparently believes that we mainstream conservative Republicans are prejudiced for taking the exact same position. We hold the right position for the wrong reason.

I wonder how he knows this. If he doesn't know this as a fact, I wonder how the Christian virtue of charity permits him to assume the worst about us. And I wonder whether I'll even bother reading his book.

Regardless, Rod Dreher should be called out for making such a disgusting accusation -- and for being such a hypocrite as to defend himself against the charge of bigotry while making the same slanderous charge against the rest of us for holding the same position.


Early in his blog at NRO, Rod Dreher had the audacity to imply that he, unlike those in the mainstream of conservatism, numbered among the "honorable conservatives."

That was clearly wishful thinking on his part.

19 Comments:

Blogger The Snob said...

Oh boy. This is more tangled up than a bowl of spaghetti.

Good- rule out all the folks who aren't hanging with Rod and Maggie in the faculty lounge. Then the entire anti-gay marriage movement will fit in a Greyhound bus.

Is it Bigotry for Old Man Murphy to say, "That boy just don't seem right to me?" Or is that the expression of traditional wisdom rooted in the permanent things? Ask most people for a philosophical/sociological exegesis of why they're opposed to child porn and they will explain, "What? It's just plain sick." It's usually the Left's M.O. to draw people into word games to force them to concede that they can't explain why, say, bestiality, is "wrong."

The whole point is that until the Left figured out how to redefine the debate in terms of things like "bigotry," we didn't need to resort to statistical analyses of census data in the Netherlands to argue against something as patently ludicrous as gay marriage.

I think this is another example of the manner in which Crunchy Conservatism is really more rooted in coastal intellectual elitism than any sort of earthy middle-American mode of thought.

PS- I'm an intellectual elitist living in Boston, so I think I'm qualified to diagnose the disease ;)

8:48 PM  
Blogger The Snob said...

PPS- I'm also in favor of gay marriage. Discuss.

8:50 PM  
Blogger Pauli said...

Rod's only phobia has to do with Catholic priests, I guess. Unordained gays, well, no homophobia there.

ConCrunchy, I oppose so-called "gay marriage" and I'm willing to discuss it providing you present your case for it; the burden of proof is on the plaintiff, so to speak. You go first.

9:24 PM  
Blogger kathleen said...

Any proponent of gay marriage worth his salt would point out to Rod/Ray that his "philosophical and sociological reasons" for opposing gay marriage are simply another covert manifestation of bigotry against gays. For example, no doubt Rodray's "sociological reasons" for opposing gay marriage include data from the Netherlands stating that more dutch babies are born illegitimately since gay marriage became legal there. But arguably such statistics were gathered in the first place in efforts stemming from what he would call "bigotry". It is highly unlikely that RodRay could marshall such stats without the efforts of "bigoted" anti-gay-marriage types (though who knows, maybe he does spend mornings at the office poring over illegitimacy rates in European countries just for kicks)

In short, another tiresome example of RodRay's rhetorical self-aggrandizement. "I'm too special...."

("philosophical and sociological reasons" ... give me a break.... sorry, Rod, but bigotry itself is a philsophy of sorts)

10:45 PM  
Blogger Pauli said...

Bubba:
> I also believe that this
> isn't an issue of rights

This is one of my main contentions and I get roasted by gays whenever I bring it up. This may seem tangential to the "gay marriage" discussion, but the issue of rights is the basis for their arguments for it and they love to focus on what we supposed cross-eyed right-wingers think about gay rights. But the elephant in the middle of the room is represented by the question "What do the majority of blacks and other minorities think about gay rights?"

The immediate retort is that gay people can't help being gay just like black people can't help being black. There's the connection to civil rights. It's the way they were born. I will grant that completely for this argument. However, gays do decide whether to identify as gays or not, a luxury which 99.99% of blacks do not have. Even out-of-the-closet gays don't have to write "I'm gay" on their resume; blacks might as well have "I'm black" written on their forehead.

Black people understand this completely. As a subgroup, they have a lower income than average whereas gays have a higher average income. There are gays who no one suspects are gay and heterosexuals who everyone suspects are. Just as a personal example to support this: multiple people have thought I was gay in the past and I've even been hit on by gays. But I'm not gay. No one has ever suspected that I was black, Asian or Hispanic.

This sounds very simplistic, but the issue is very simple. All this talk on the left about gay rights is couched in the language of civil rights. But racial bigotry is totally different than homophobia. Old Man Murphy never said, "That boy just don't seem white to me" unless his eyesight was completely gone. Had Rosa Parks a white lesbian neighbor I doubt she would have been asked to surrender a seat regardless of the prevailing attitude toward lesbianism in 1955 Alabama. Prejudice relies on knowledge of the characteristic of the party against which one is prejudiced.

Blacks have had to put up with far more than people who choose a gay lifestyle, let alone those who are simply "born gay". So although I can see how it may be said that there is some sort of real collective "bigotry" against homosexuals by some, it simply doesn't translate to impacting people on an individual level as with bigotry against minorities based on personal appearance.

8:07 AM  
Blogger kathleen said...

Has Rod spelled out his extra special, totally honorable plus, "philosophical and sociological reasons" anywhere? or are we just supposed to take his word for it that his reasons are honorable, in contrast to bigoted mainstreamers?

Maggie Gallagher has a habit of influencing facts to support her logic. For instance, she insists that people who marry young statistically do not have a higher chance of divorce, which is simply wrong in recent experience. but I think she is probably presenting data from the past, say, 60 years instead of the past 30, and not saying so. Don't get me wrong, she has every right to do this-- she is an advocate and forthrightly presents herself as such. but "facts" are malleable, prone to influence and bias and even bigotry -- it's Disraeli's "lies, damned lies and statistics" argument.

11:52 AM  
Blogger Pauli said...

And if rights are mere social constructs, what's with this obsession with 2 people getting married? Why can't 3 or more people who truly love each other and want to have a relationship together be able to have a marriage just like the "duo-sexual" folks?

11:54 AM  
Blogger Pauli said...

Kathleen said:
> or are we just supposed to
> take his word for it that his
> reasons are honorable, in
> contrast to bigoted mainstreamers?

Uh, yeah, Kathleen because he links to Andrew Sullivan.

11:59 AM  
Blogger The Snob said...

I see I committed the classic journalistic sin of stepping on my lede. My point was mainly to say that I found his logic tortured despite what should have been a sympathetic position.

12:13 PM  
Blogger The Snob said...

Steve: This is a mainstream enough gay position that I heard it a couple of years ago on a SF Bay area debate on the local NPR outlet.

Oh come on. That's about as significant as Pravda saying something nice about Lenin in the Moscow evening edition.

1:19 PM  
Blogger Pauli said...

Contra said:
> That's about as significant
> as Pravda saying something
> nice about Lenin in the
> Moscow evening edition.

You're not suggesting that gays are as bad as commies, are you?

Juuuuuuuust kidding....

1:25 PM  
Blogger kathleen said...

There are a lot of gays who disdain legalized gay marriage for the reasons Silicon Steve says some gays support it. They wish to emulate precisely nothing of hetero marriage as it currently exists.

I think Camille Paglia counts herself among this camp.

I think such gays present the best argument against legalized gay marriage -- they acknowledge that homosexuality in its essence is inherently inimical to the ideals of hetero marriage relationship. BTW I don't think any of these gays would consider their position as a set of grand "philosophical and sociological reasons" either.

2:32 PM  
Blogger The Snob said...

Well now this is fun. First, Steve:

You're right to say that there is a significant presence within the gay community that wants to "queer" the institution of marriage generally. In fact there is a sizable chunk of the more radical element who believe that the movement should be focused on discrediting marriage per se rather than gaining access to the franchise. I don't know whether that is here or there, though.

2. "I have never been able to locate any public source of gay opinion that supports a conservative position on homosexual relationships. I have never seen a gay rights advocate publicly oppose any of the extreme behavior that is the norm in the gay community.

So, if I can find you one of either, will you concede the point?

Of course the "professionals" are going to be more on the radical frienge of things. Last I checked, the leaders of the AFL-CIO were gnashing their teeth about rights for illegal immigrants, while the members who pay their salaries would probably like to see mass deportations. I don't spend a lot of time keeping up on gay advocacy; it's not really relevant to me. I do have a fairly large number of gay friends and acquaintances leading normal lives and that's what my observations are mostly based on.

I don't believe because homosexuals gain the ability to form a legal marriage they will form more traditional modes of sexual relationships. I see no evidence of it. In fact, I see the contrary.

Well, the way I see it, if we don't allow them to marry, then there is really no positive inducement to "mainstream" their behavior. Meanwhile, their radical influence will seep into the culture all the same. That strikes me as pretty much a guaranteed weakening of marriage, while letting them in has at least a chance of turning the tide a little. But let's be honest, we're both applying Kentucky windage here, aren't we?

2:32 PM  
Blogger The Snob said...

Bubba: Contra, respectfully, I'm not sure I understand the difference between your expressed goal of mainstreaming homosexual behavior and defining deviancy down.

The difference is that I believe that deviance is a matter of behavior subsequent to the fact of homosexuality. Merely being in a gay relationship does not constitute deviance, so allowing them to marry does not define the institution down.

Just to take the point further, let's say the bride-to-be sleeps with the best man a week before the wedding. While we might advise him not to, the groom is still free to marry his fiancee; the law does not take fidelity into account in that regard. For that matter, even so-called "open marriages" remain valid so long as both husband and wife wish to continue. While the Church might not marry such a couple, the justice of the peace certainly would.

Perhaps deviance should disqualify straights from marrying. But it doesn't. So the argument is not only logically tendentious but ultimately a red herring.

9:32 PM  
Blogger The Snob said...

Steve: I think you've got it all backwards here. Marriage does not make people sexually conservative. It is the positive nature of heterosexual relations to move towards faithfulness and restraint. Woman push men towards this superior moral state and men benefit from it.

So, by this logic we ought to at least allow lesbians to marry...

9:37 PM  
Blogger Pauli said...

Just to throw my 2 cents in, Contra wrote in number 2: "Heterosexual marriage today is an awfully long way from what it was in 1900, 1500, or even 1950." I would argue that it might look different, but it is exactly the same. You could say the accidents have changed, but not the substance of the institution. In my opinion, some things are better now than in the 50's and 1500's and some things are not as good; e.g., the demise of the "rule of thumb" and chauvinism vs. the rise of the "welfare queen" and radical feminism. It's good to note that the argument can be made that it was the chauvinism which led to the rad. feminism which led to the tangled web of no-fault divorce, abortion, welfare dependency, etc. all moved along by generous helpings of selfishness and materialism.

But none of these changes what marriage is in essence, either in society or in traditional Christianity. Both acknowledge that, unlike Rod's lemon-pepper free-range chickens, no marriage lives perfectly up to the ideal within the married life and vocation. That's why in the Catholic Church marriage was made a sacrament, a sign which imparts God's grace; we need all the help we can get to live out the vocation to marriage.

A related example of how bad behavior doesn't change an institution: In the 90's there were people (far-right conservatives mostly) who were moaning about how "Bill Clinton RUINED the U.S. Presidency!!" with all his goofing around, but this was utter nonsense. He might have ruined the carpet.... but this is like all these gay marriage advocates running around saying "Hetero's have made such a mess of marriage, they've ruined it, and now they claim they want to protect it." They have a point, but only if there is no core substance to marriage, no ideal apart from what we construct. We might destroy a million marriages with our deplorable behavior, but marriage as an institution, an ideal and a noble vocation remains intact.

7:33 AM  
Blogger kathleen said...

Pauli, aren't you weakening your argument a bit by insisting that marriage is a sacrament? after all, marriage clearly isn't a sacrament for every hetero couple -- doesn't that mean there is a sort of bifurcation of marriage already (civil vs. sacramental), and that therefore homosexual "marriage" (which would always be civil, at least in the eyes of, for example, the catholic church) and homosexual "civil unions" aren't somewhat redundant?


Maybe what conservatives should be fighting for is a homo and hetero "civil union", so as to distinguish between civil marriages (which secularist hetero couples might embrace) and sacramental hetero marriages. Perhaps we are weakening the institution of "sacramental marriage" by permitting justices of the peace to perform the same ceremony and call it a civil marriage.

7:44 AM  
Blogger Pauli said...

asKathleen, I'm not insisting marriage be a sacrament, just pointing out as a personal observation one reason which it is. For the same reason, the church doesn't confer the status of sacramentality upon coffee shops and wine boutiques because humans don't have as much trouble with those things, be they corporately of locally owned.

But your point is very well taken. I am probably weakening the argument by bringing up any type of religious authority. And also, to your point, I'm confusing the issue by using the word marriage in both the Catholic sense of "Christian marriage" and the legal/civil sense.

Re: civil unions I would maintain that, in a sense, gays bent on a long term relationship can already draw up all kinds of agreements which make them married fo all practical purposes. They can adopt kids, have visitor's rights in cases of emergency, wills and POA assignments and in places like Cleveland Heights, OH there is even some type of legislation whereby (at least some) employers have to provide insurance coverage for domestic partners which can include gays.

I don't have any problem with this from a legal/civil standpoint. The thing that's hardest for me is adoption, but I have to say that when I think of a kid that no one wants in a home for years and years I have to say let the gay couple adopt him/her. At least it will save them from Angelina Jolie's little Crawford-esque kid collection.

The only 2 immediate things I can think of that legalizing marriage for gays would give them is the ability for foreigners to become naturalized by marriage and widespread insurance coverage for gay partners. Someone smarter than me, please correct me. Long-term there would be other "intangibles" obviously.

Contra, I don't really see how legal gay marriage will help "mainstream them" except, and I'm really saying this seriously, it will give them the ability for the first time to get divorced which might prove to be an absolutely new cash cow for lawyers.

But I agree with Steve; there is the public "strategic" debate on this and the agenda debate where they call us "bettero-sexuals" and accuse us of screwing up marriage worse than they ever would.

Kathleen, I think your idea of a complete distinction in concepts and words between "civil union" and "marriage" might actually be a good thing. To some degree, this notion of the state having some role in marriage is a clumsy construct set in motion by the Protestant Reformation (oops, more spaghetti for the bowl....) That's why ministers say things like "By the power vested in me by the State of Ohio I now pronounce you....". Separation would eliminate a lot of the annulment confusion as well. I just don't know if it's practical to expect that this can be done; the roots of this mentality might be simply too deep. (Incidentally, I have friends who actually never went to the courthouse to get a license and the minister married them anyway. Later they tried to get a license and they were told "Oh - you have to apply before you get married" and they literally weren't allowed to get one! This was in PA.)

10:23 AM  
Blogger The Snob said...

I wrote a long response yesterday, which Blogger promptly ate and... you get the idea. Then I was going to respond today, but I've been too busy smiling at the news that Zarqawi is on his way back to the beginning of the carbon cycle.

3:43 PM  

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